What more and more people are choosing is CAPACITY. But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. If you have to revisit the basics of projectile ballistics, here is a decent place to start. Also my pattern emptying a clip rapidly against someone with a 9mm, Ill win that as well all day everyday! Platt was killed at the end of the gunfight, but not before unleashing deadly mayhem. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. Another, was a 300lb black bear. If youre being attacked or in the process of deterring an oncoming attack, fear can have an affect. The story makes that even sound too few. Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. That was with 6 shot revolvers or 17+1 round Glock 17s. Let me now take you back to 1987. I see your point. You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. Wow now this argument of 9 mm verses 45 acp is stupid. I havent heard anything about the M17 yet, but I am guessing that people will say at least they arent completely worn out and rattling like a kids toy, with parts falling off them, like all the M9s were.. Just as many others I was forced throughout a 25 yr L.E. All three shots vital to heart and lungs. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. But I think your decision is not based on any real scientific backing and is more rooted in confirmation bias than anything. WebThe Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. Id use either! Many of the debate points industry experts and defense folks make are moot. Guns dont kill people. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. I seem to recall reading in Rangemaster newsletter a month or two ago an FBI paper making the FMJ case. Training, muscle memory, nerves, etc dictate to me, that the harder hitting rounds are far more apt to keep me going home in the morning. Bullet was military Ball. round, you can see all three effects. During each tour I was personally involved multiple combat engagements. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. The point here is this: it is okay that the Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command has decided to issue only Glock 19's. EVER! As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. Why arent both so much better than .223? If one keeps a weapon in the home for self defense, we believe that it is a duty to know the weapon inside and out and to train with it regularly. It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. A .223 is just 55 grains. .45 ACP is not the one-shot-stopping hammer that some people think it is. The .223 generates a far larger shock wave, and penetrates farther, than the .22. Confirmed by projectiles taken out of Papa. Let the Craftsman pick his tools! May everyone who reads this have a Blessed Day! The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. Sad. I agree with your bad guy statement, but when I was training to become a Paramedic and obviously most of the training was done in the ER so we definitely saw damner everything you can imagine especially a lot of gunshot incidents and what I can tell you was that we were able to save and keep more bad guys alive who were shot with 9mm multiple times than those who had been shot 1-2 times with a .45. So dont ask. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. Project: Aftermath Wiki. The FBI claims a bullet has no hydrostatic shock capabilities until at least 2200-2400 fps. My next handgun will be either a Ruger SR 1911 or a Kimber 1911 clone. I owned a 9mm years ago and liked the gun, though the grip was too large for me due to the double stack magazine. How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. I still carry a Ruger P-97 in 45 ACP caliber. What I have found, is its a matter of preference. S&W was required to announce it due to SEC requirements as they are one of the only publicly-owner companies. The one he found had the best chance was the .357 magnum. American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. The fact is you will rarely ever have perfect conditions to take the well-placed shot. Ammunition can really change performance. So any caliber is better than none. Many do not discover the gun thats right for them as easily as you have (if they ever do)! Thank you. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. I doubt a .45 would have allowed that.also know a guy who took 10 shots of 9mm at close range in a robbery and survived and is healthy and surfs, shooter must have had terrible aim. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and, A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. Daniel, the US has generally abided by the Hague (and Geneva) Conventions and their respective protocols. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. But I understand the 9 isnt on level with the 45 and know unless a headshot presents itself I will have to dump my mag 7+1 into whoever makes me engage them for a favorable outcome. Cool story for real. However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. the difference between a 45 and a 9 millimeter and a couple milliseconds of reaction time, it really depends on the situation and again, personal preference. George. Make your best shot number one. 15 round mag of 9mm FMJ unless you hit the heart better plan on using 3 to 5 rounds to stop the person. Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. Different bullets and guns have different patterns. It is extremely difficult to shoot accurately under such pressure. Because of the relatively slim chance of obtaining more than a single torso hit, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation. Why bullet size matters in police shootings | PoliceOne.com Blood poured out of his chest cavity, she wrote. Or 45 cal quickly changes the perspective f the individual. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. Thats right George. People have lived through being nuclear bombed. With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. Yes, yeas I have. IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. No matter what caliber you are carrying, just remember that one of the keys to shooting through auto glass (whether from within or outside the vehicle) is to shoot as much as possible through the same hole. pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. There are already documented instances where .45 ACP also failed to get reliable stops on a bad guy. Ive come to a conclusion that many people lean towards the 9 mm including the military because its easier to control and thus are more accurate, especially for a teenager fresh out of high school. At 880 fps a 230 grains projectile has 395 foot pounds of muzzle energy. Shot placement rules. First off, its important to understand what the term refers to. Depends. If you throw it at someone, not so much. If its fired from a Thompson Submachine gun, its almost guaranteed to be lethal. It's estimated that chronic kidney disease affects about one in seven American adults. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. The only argument I have ever heard that actually makes any sense is the most recent comment where former law enforcement States the possibility of collateral damage from over penetration. We began clearing the location and papa was lying face up in nothing but his white-e-tieties. Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. The idea that a bullet has the power to knock an adversary to the ground is a Hollywood myth. Obama wants us dead. This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. Because of the dynamic and chaotic nature of officer-involved shootings, officers are trained to shoot at center mass of an assailants torso from whatever side/angle of the torso that presents itself. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter (i.e., recoil) and he too would be knocked down. The USMC changed to 9mm since female Marines had trouble with recoil and were not qualifying at same rate as males. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. I believe the 45 ACP would scare many and they would rarely shoot to their capability. Damage: 23. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. This can take several seconds to several minutes or even longer. Your story reinforced thisas civilian in counters are closer that usual police work. For a bullet to be effective for law enforcement, it must be able to penetrate the body between 12 and 18 inches to reach large vital organs to cause rapid blood loss. During the last 15 years in LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. We will stand at 7 to 20 yards (your choice) and shoot each other in the chest. The latest testing shows that modern 9mm performs pretty much as well as the other common semi-auto options, and since it carries more rounds and is easier to shoot (and I dont care who you are, but it is easier/faster to shoot compared to the larger calibers), it is fairly sound logic to select the 9mm. Thank you. Ive been training for 50+ years and continue to do so. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. You probably wont feel as much pain in your hands or joints when the rounds go off as when youre practicing on the range. Also the .45 will ring your ears like hell and most self defense scenarios are you are not wearing ear protection. Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. Steel BB (0.170" ball bearing) at 200 ft/s will make a hole, but will not penetrate 4" plate glass. You can read all the FBI reports and all the ballistic gel crap you want. Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. He was 15.. Wounding one enemy combatant to take three out of the fight (or at least two) was a good argument when we were facing civilized enemies such as the Germans in WW II. As where the .45, would dislodge the silhouette every time with a single shot. I however still allowed to carry a 45 and, will as long as I am able to. 7.62 leads the damage potential, followed by 5.56, followed by 45 and finally 9 mm. While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. Walked closer and finished it with a 44 round between the eyes. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. It goes in a like a nail.. Oh boy, that could start a whole new area of discussion 1911 vs 1926, most common bullet weights, etc. Use your heads!! Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. Lee reloading gear. I trap and shoot most animals with a Browning 1911-22 now. But you have not reached the mark to replace that recoil spring. Ive got a good deal of ballistic and aeronautical knowledge under my belt, and I agree in flight friction coefficient is not something that plays a significant enough role in comparative analysis of 9mm and 45 Auto at practical ranges. Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. My department stopped using them in 45 cal because there were enough malfunction to stop. Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. Handgun caliber and size is to each is own. Ive hunted with both 9 and 45. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. Because recoil obviously cant be observed and you have to shoot someone huh, I heard of a police officer shooting a dog 6 times with a 9 mm before being able to incapacitate the dog. the statement that a 9mm can carry more bullets. True. With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. I have several 1911 pistols. Would the same shot with More bullet have made a difference i think not. But with my Kimber Colt 45 I hit first shot no problem and it left that watermellon in disaster. It has less recoil, is less expensive and its penetration apparently compares favorably with the larger-sized rounds. for all the same reasons. https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/, http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/, https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/, Victim Uses Awareness And a Gun to End Armed Attacker, S8E5: The Battle over Gun Registration & Assault Weapon Ban Rages On, Man Disarmed And Shot With Own Handgun in Parking Lot, Finally a Holster for the SIRT Pocket Pistol, Watch This Before You Shoot Your Pistol!! I am sorry for your incounter. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. If I wanted to hit a little harder, I would maybe look for a WC .45 mold in the 220 to WebHuman Body 101 | National Geographic National Geographic 21.2M subscribers Subscribe 52K 3.3M views 5 years ago How does the human body work? So, the answer is simple, right? At 70, I choose to go small & straight! Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. A .223 is just 55 grains. The 9mm is being adopted by military and law enforcement due to its higher capacity and lower price, as well as the reduced recoil which increases accuracy for many who find the .45 a bit much to handle. 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. Black Talon ammunition was Where aim for the middle of the whole body. Elton Makin was a US marine in World War One. In September 1918 American troops had overrun the German front line, and he was sent back carrying a Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. Did you know that Durys has been in business since 1959? The P227 Tacops holds 14 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber so 15 rounds is similar to the Glock. The FBI agents had loaded jacketed hollow point bullets into their firearms. We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. As a medical provider who fractured his back, making a house call in Alaska-dealing with chronic pain issues-I have talk to our local Police Captain. That problem is solved by making more of a bullets surface area actually come in contact with its target. If a 9mm bullet barely misses the heart or aorta of an adversary, but the heart or aorta of that same person is creased by the slightly larger .40 or .45 caliber round, it can be said with conviction that bullet diameter, expanding or not, really does matter. Guy KEPT COMING and managed to shoot back twice. 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. Damage: 22 per pellet. There are tons of manuals and a ton of information so that you can write an informed post. Ben, enlightened folk like you (and myself) understand that politics is ALWAYS at play on some level!! If I think it can get that bad where Im going. For another 2+ years. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. We had a good chuckle out of that one. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. Youll immediately learn the, Why didnt I squeeze the trigger when I had the shot? But are we supposed to believe the difference in air resistance between a 9mm and a .45ACP is that great? Unless they needed concealablity. 24 Round Magazine now only decreases reload time by 5% rather than 20% like before. Police, f.b.i., train. JavaScript is disabled. Source: True, Or not? 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 600 ft/s will penetrate 4' plate glass. .223 Rem in 5.56 NATO is OK. Still, I think when we're talking about pistol caliber handguns, it's pretty hard to measure any substantial accuracy differences when we're rarely shooting at distances greater than 15-25 yards if that. arrow moving at what velocity.200 feet per second? However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. Thats not the kind of performance Im looking for. Thats good, it is always good for people to find what works best for them. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. You have either been there, done that or you are a very common sense person. WebA 9mm -40 - 357sig -45 ACP all do about 11-13" penetration into the human body no temporary wound cavity, and the diamiter differnce is from 9mm(.355(.357 caliber)) to 11.5mm(.45 caliber). The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. This is real life experience not article information research. ago Haha. The beautiful country in south east Asia. Note that buying a handgun for personal protection is not an abstract desire. The one magor factor that keeps deciding the outcome is if the victim or assailant has the actual ability to kill. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. Garand Thumb 2.84M subscribers 4.2M views 1 year ago 9mm vs 45 ACP, the age old debate and the one that This may be called Tools or use an icon like the cog. The slower 45acp round FMJ will pass through but leaving more energy expended plus a larger wound channel so the same to a lesser degree applies to the 45 acp FMJ; but, if you have 45acp JHP in the gun usually one hit whether it be in the shoulder, leg or chest area game over. My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. Riley, love your artical. It did when it came to FMJ bullets. I guess I might be a little old school, 1911 45, M1 Grand in 3006, or M1A in a 308, these are older, but they have not made better guns or calibersI still have a glock and some 9s, but only because If I do have to use it I dont want to lose my 1911, and yes I have a AR15, but still like the A1 more. Look at the Walter Scott shooting. The 45 deer had busted bones and bullets still within them. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. Developed in the 1950s, this round combines high velocity with large bullet size. I have had to fire both and knowing that the 9 mm is a lighter piece of lead compared to the 45 ACP it is all about placement then. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. This post reported that the FBI Training Division had reevaluated which handgun round was best for FBI agents and reached the following conclusions: The 2014 FBI Training Division Report stated that the FBI had chosen the 9mm bullet (147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2) for FBI agents to carry because, The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.. You can either hit a target or not that simple. Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. Every round has its purpose. (My opinion) I have long advocated carrying 1911s with 8 extra magazines. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. So, as so many have said above, it depends on what you are comfortable with and what you plan to be doing with it. Frank K. Seems to me that when using the same style bullet in the 45 and 9mm the 45 would still beat the 9 in stopping power. Without fragmentation, temporary cavity wounds can be relatively minor. So its purpose is based on design. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. The Krag was a failure for two reasons. WebCapitola Mansion Apartments, Off Grid Cabin Canada, Seth Smith Actor Age, Parma High School Football Schedule, Roxiticus Country Club Membership Fees, Jquery Time Slot Booking Calendar, 45 Acp Damage Human Body, Maricopa News Shooting, Tws I12 Keeps Powering Off, Long Term Rentals Camber Sands, I have used both calibers personally in combat, and I can say unequivocally and without any doubt whatsoever that the .45 cal DEFINITELY has much more knockdown power than the 9mm which due to its higher velocity tends to punch right through the assailant leaving him wounded but still on his feet and able to return fire. Small, light, and more rugged than a lot plastic guns. You do your failure drill. I prefer the .45 ACP. Give SOCOM GLocks which shoot 9mm (Glocks are great guns and I dont have a problem with the 9mm, great cartridge especially with all the advancements over the last 30 years) as I was saying problem solved. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. With civilians Mosher shootings occur within 7 yards thats 21 feet are closer usually closer. I have a medical issue that makes it easier for me to carry a double action in a very small package. Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. I also have one that many people will call garbage. The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? With practice almost anything is possible. 45 muzzle velocity is 500 feet per second and the 9mil is 1500 fps. 10 Best ways to Make Money on Social Media and not waste time. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. Indeed, physiological factors play a very small part in rapid incapacitation of a target. But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. Whats more, for those who are considering purchasing a firearm for home defense, but have not yet done so, it is important to know what kind of firearm is appropriate for your needs. To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the likelihood of incapacitation increases. Poor light and unplanned obstacles are common in real-life self-defense scenarios. Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor.
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